Energy From Thorium Discussion Forum

Is thorium the energy source we've been waiting for?
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 Post subject: A Small, Mobile, Molten-Salt Reactor for Remote Power
PostPosted: May 05, 2007 7:50 am 
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As many of you know, I have been a part-time graduate student at the University of Tennessee for several years now. Since I live in Alabama, I take classes online in pursuit of my masters' degree in nuclear engineering. I'm about 3/4 of the way through my degree, but with three kids and a full-time job, it's pretty slow-going.

This semester, I took the second course in UT's graduate level reactor design sequence and I had the opportunity to work with a team of other students in a similar situation. My team members were Bill Casino and Chris Whitener, who are practicing nuclear engineers who also are working on their masters' degrees part-time through the UT distance learning program.

This class began in January, and we were assigned a reactor design problem. Here is the problem statement:

Quote:
Small Mobile Reactor for Underdeveloped Countries and Remote Locations

The objective of this project is to design a small reactor that can be transported by truck to a remote location. In addition to its small size, it will not be refueled on site but rather will be removed by truck and replaced with a reactor with a fresh core. Although the capacity remains to be chosen, 100 MW electric is a reasonable goal.

This project has considerable latitude it its design. Weight and size will probably make a pressure vessel impractical. However, a CANDU type design might be used with water as a coolant. Selection of the coolant will be a major design task left wide open. Liquid metals, gas, molten salt, or water will all be considered. The secondary plant must also be considered. However, the entire plant need not be delivered on a single truck; it might take several truck loads with a single load for the reactor at the time of refueling.

The reactor need not be thermal. We will also consider the advantages of a fast spectrum reactor using a liquid metal coolant.

Elements of Design

1. Power Coefficient and Void Coefficient

Both of these coefficients are of utmost importance for operation and safety. Since most of our experience is with water reactors, consideration of other coolants will introduce us to a new regime. Fast reactors will also bring us into a new area. In all cases, we must have a negative void coefficient and a negative power coefficient.

2. Neutron transport

This area will be important in evaluating the longevity of the fuel cycle, the power and void coefficients, and the flux profile. The small size is expected to aid in reactor control. The core geometry may be adjusted to optimize power coefficient and flux shape.

3. Heat Transfer

Thermal hydraulics will be considered not only for steady state heat removal but for decay heat removal upon shutdown or accident conditions. Many designs are available that enable natural circulation cooling under accident conditions. This will also be a consideration in our reactor.

4. Materials Selection

High temperature and high efficiency are not prime considerations. However, the more efficient, the smaller the reactor can be made. We must select materials that will withstand operating temperatures and the long fuel cycle. However, this is not a research project, only a conceptual design. We will identify areas for future research on materials or other requirements.

5. Secondary System

The secondary system will not be an area on which we will focus. However, we must identify the type of system and have an estimate of its size. Steam generators are very large. Perhaps another system will be more favorable.

6. Safety

Safety is always a consideration in a design project. For a remote reactor, it is a goal for it to operate with a minimum of intervention. Convection cooling in case of pump failure is a major advantage. Containment is essential. However, this will not be a major part of the design effort. Concepts that are already established can be used.


To this end, we considered several different reactor options, ultimately settling on a liquid-fluoride reactor with a helium gas turbine power conversion system. Because of restrictions on the uranium enrichment of the fuel, I made the decision not to use thorium in the salt, instead opting for a "once-through" fuel cycle not terribly dissimilar from today's light-water reactors in terms of fuel consumption.

However, the capability exists to design a different core, with fuel and blanket loops and more sophisticated reprocessing, that could actually burn thorium instead of U-235. Whether or not that capability would mesh with the proliferation resistance and remote deployment requirements is still a valid subject of debate.

At any rate, for your enjoyment, here is our final report and the presentation I gave at the university on April 25th.

Paper (3.2 MB)

Presentation (2.7 MB)

If you wish to reference this work, please link to this discussion thread rather than to the paper or presentation themselves so that readers can get some of the background of the study.

My team worked very very hard to put this together and I want them to know how much I appreciate their efforts. Your comments are appreciated as well.


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PostPosted: May 05, 2007 8:35 am 
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Fascinating study!
It'd be nice to compare it to some other approach.


The reactor is pretty big, 3m diameter, 6 meters tall currently. And making it smaller reduces lifespan.

If the high radiation flux in the graphite is the limiting factor, is there no hope on progress in this front? Carbon materials science has done amazing things. Fullerenes were found in the eighties...

2.68^22 n/cm^2 means probably 2.68*10^22 ?

How many kg:s of graphite are there in the reactor? How hazardous will the graphite be at the end of life? Could it be refurbished or recycled somehow into new moderator pieces?

This seems to be a pretty major focal point of the whole technology.


As further points, somewhat beyond the scope of the presentation, I'm also interested in what would happen to the old reactor when replaced. Also the operating aspects of helium turbomachinery must not be very easy in a developing country.


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PostPosted: May 05, 2007 9:16 am 
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meiza wrote:
If the high radiation flux in the graphite is the limiting factor, is there no hope on progress in this front? Carbon materials science has done amazing things. Fullerenes were found in the eighties...


Actually, I think there is a much simpler answer than that.

In this design, as with many of the older ORNL designs, there's nowhere for heat to go but to the salt. So, if you have heat deposition in the graphite in the form of gammas and neutron moderation, the graphite must, of necessity, find an equilibrium temperature higher than the salt, so that heat flows from the graphite to the salt.

That's not good for graphite lifetime, since it's such a strong function of temperature.

On the other hand, if you had a core moderated by D2O, with fuel flowing through insulated graphite tubes, then the heat would tend to flow from the graphite to the D2O, and the graphite would assume a temperature LESS than the salt. Temperature improvements have a huge effect on graphite performance.


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PostPosted: May 05, 2007 9:35 pm 
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Quote:
On the other hand, if you had a core moderated by D2O, with fuel flowing through insulated graphite tubes, then the heat would tend to flow from the graphite to the D2O, and the graphite would assume a temperature LESS than the salt. Temperature improvements have a huge effect on graphite performance.


Which suggests that bringing in people from Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. would be helpful. The comments from one or two of the regulars here suggest that they have some connection with AECL. (At least a closer connection than mine which is that my father worked there a few decades ago)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: May 07, 2007 7:12 am 
Well Kirk, I'm only an IT guy rather than a nuclear physicist but your paper sure sounds convincing.

One thing you didn't seem to have to take into account for the assignment was cost. Can you offer any insight into the likely advantages or disadvantes of this design with respect to the eventual price per kWh of electricity?

And if a uranium fuel cycle can be made to look this good, what would be the advantages of modifying this design to use thorium as a fuel other than the relative ease of mineral extraction and processing?


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PostPosted: May 07, 2007 8:43 am 
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Terry Brady wrote:
And if a uranium fuel cycle can be made to look this good, what would be the advantages of modifying this design to use thorium as a fuel other than the relative ease of mineral extraction and processing?

The advantage of going to a thorium burner would be about a 300x improvement in fuel efficiency, the elimination of long-lived transuranic waste, and the elimination of the need to supply the reactor with fissile material (in this case enriched) beyond the initial start.

I couldn't do it on this design because of the original groundrule limiting the enrichment of the fuel. I might propose the thorium-fueled version to my professor as my personal design project (one of the things I must do before I graduate).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: May 07, 2007 12:27 pm 
I'm in the process of reading it.

Looks good so far :)


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PostPosted: May 23, 2007 12:27 pm 
Why did you not design this as a fast MSR if you are going to use natural or enriched uranium as a fuel source? I think the best hope of getting anyone to invest in MSR technology is to get a fast version running that can be used as a burner for any long term wastes, or excess weapons material. Eventually as the technology improved you could probably make a U233 breeder burning Pu and other transuranics, and eventually minimal investment would be required to get a thorium economy underway.

What am I missing?


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PostPosted: May 23, 2007 12:37 pm 
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petro wrote:
Why did you not design this as a fast MSR if you are going to use natural or enriched uranium as a fuel source? I think the best hope of getting anyone to invest in MSR technology is to get a fast version running that can be used as a burner for any long term wastes, or excess weapons material. Eventually as the technology improved you could probably make a U233 breeder burning Pu and other transuranics, and eventually minimal investment would be required to get a thorium economy underway.

What am I missing?


Building a fast-spectrum salt reactor will require the use of chloride-based fuels rather than fluoride-based fuels. While the concept for a chloride reactor dates back over forty years, there is no proof-of-concept chloride reactor that one can point to and say, see I know this works...

With fluoride fuels, there are two such reactors, the Aircraft Reactor Experiment and the Molten-Salt Reactor Experiment, both of which were highly successful and laid a tremendous practical foundation for the use of fluoride salts.

We made a very basic decision early in the design process to pursue a thermal-spectrum reactor. The decision to use enriched uranium as the fuel form came later. In the thermal-spectrum, fluorides are the favored fuel form.

The decision to use enriched uranium (or even natural uranium) is one that I have been thinking about quite a bit since we wrote the paper. I've been wondering about the merit of using heavy-water as a moderator to allow the use of natural uranium in the reactor. Jaro has suggested this a number of times on here (heavy-water moderation) but I had never considered it in concert with the use of natural uranium...I wonder...

At any rate, if we had access to highly-enriched uranium or U-233, it would make the most sense to proceed directly to the construction of a true thorium-burning fluoride reactor.


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PostPosted: May 24, 2007 7:19 am 
The fact that the proven flouride technology has gotten little attention over the last 50 years, it doesn't seem like to much of a stretch to push for the Cloride LCR instead. When I think of congress's ability to grasp technological concepts, I think of the statement by Ted Stephens after making a critical decision on the future of the internet, he stated that the internet is not a like a truck you can just dump stuff on, its a series of tubes.

Seeing as you have to address congress in the most basic terminology, imagine pitching them a reactor designed like a vat that you could dump High level nuclear waste into and generate heat. A reactor that could dump plutonium from nuclear weapons into and burn it up. There is no need for any fuel fabrication of radioactive materials, you just dump it in. You can also take those piles of Depleted uranium that I assume are accumulating all around the enrichment facilities and burn them up to. These fast reactors could also be used to create start charges of U233 for thorium fueled thermal breeder reactors. Given that Yucca mountain will cost an estimated $43.6 billion before its finished, I would think you could leverage that cost against ~$2 billion for funding this burner that would destroy most of the long lived waste.

Thats just my pie in the sky view on things.

Also it doesn't seem logical to use D2O as a moderator for a LFR. You are introducing water to the reactor which if I am not mistaken is highly incompatible with the salt? The D2O would also need to be under high pressure creating an explosion hazard inside the core, removing one of the nice safety features of having the core operate at atmospheric pressure.

If you use natural uranium in an LFR of the design described above, will not the accumulation of U238 absorb to many of the neutrons after a while to keep keff >= 1?


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PostPosted: May 24, 2007 9:26 am 
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petro wrote:
The fact that the proven flouride technology has gotten little attention over the last 50 years, it doesn't seem like to much of a stretch to push for the Cloride LCR instead. When I think of congress's ability to grasp technological concepts, I think of the statement by Ted Stephens after making a critical decision on the future of the internet, he stated that the internet is not a like a truck you can just dump stuff on, its a series of tubes.

Seeing as you have to address congress in the most basic terminology, imagine pitching them a reactor designed like a vat that you could dump High level nuclear waste into and generate heat. A reactor that could dump plutonium from nuclear weapons into and burn it up. There is no need for any fuel fabrication of radioactive materials, you just dump it in. You can also take those piles of Depleted uranium that I assume are accumulating all around the enrichment facilities and burn them up to. These fast reactors could also be used to create start charges of U233 for thorium fueled thermal breeder reactors. Given that Yucca mountain will cost an estimated $43.6 billion before its finished, I would think you could leverage that cost against ~$2 billion for funding this burner that would destroy most of the long lived waste.


These are excellent points and I am in broad agreement with you. I suggest you move this section of your discussion to the part of the forum called "Liquid-Chloride Reactors" where there are a number of threads already discussing the merits of chloride reactors along these lines.

petro wrote:
Also it doesn't seem logical to use D2O as a moderator for a LFR. You are introducing water to the reactor which if I am not mistaken is highly incompatible with the salt? The D2O would also need to be under high pressure creating an explosion hazard inside the core, removing one of the nice safety features of having the core operate at atmospheric pressure.


D2O is a fantastic moderator--combining the two most important aspects of a moderator (strong slowing down power and minimal neutron absorption) better than any other. The basic problem with D2O as a moderator in a fluoride reactor is the temperature incompatibility--D2O is liquid at ambient temperatures (~300K) while the fluoride salt will be operating at temperatures of ~1000K. The secret to using D2O as a moderator in a fluoride reactor will probably be the use of super-insulators like aerogels composed of low-neutron absorption materials.

Aerogels by nature are essentially silica oxide, and both silicon and oxygen have low neutron absorption. If the D2O is kept thermally isolated from the salt as much as possible, then there's no reason why it can't operate at atmospheric pressure too. Remember--we wouldn't be using the D2O for heat transfer, only for moderation. We wouldn't want it to get hot or operate under pressure--a fundamental departure from typical water-moderated AND cooled reactors like the LWR and CANDU.

As far as incompatibility, the salt does not react violently with water at all. There were ORNL experiments where they injected hot slugs of salt at 1000K directly into liquid water. They expected, at worst, a big steam bubble, and I don't think they even got that. I'd have to look it up. But the salt is chemically stable--it's not a liquid-metal that's going to explode.


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 Post subject: recovery from fuel dump
PostPosted: May 28, 2007 2:17 pm 
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Hi Kirk,

congratulations to your nice study, it was some enjoyable reading. There is just one thing I didnt find an answer for - if some problem occurs and the freeze valve will open and dump the fuel to the emergency tank, is there a way to recover from such accident?

thanks & best wishes
Ondrej


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 Post subject: Re: recovery from fuel dump
PostPosted: May 28, 2007 3:31 pm 
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ondrejch wrote:
congratulations to your nice study, it was some enjoyable reading. There is just one thing I didnt find an answer for - if some problem occurs and the freeze valve will open and dump the fuel to the emergency tank, is there a way to recover from such accident?

Yes, simply restore primary cooling and pump the salt from the drain tank back into the primary loop.


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PostPosted: Oct 25, 2007 11:46 am 
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Hello all, I just realized that Kirk has been sharing our little secret with all of you. It seems that you guys like the work that we've done. Thanks.

The project had a great many initial restrictions which drove us away from many of the more exotic ideas that you folks normally discuss on this forum. I, since meeting Kirk and learning more about liquid fuelled systems, like the concept of a thermal breeder - for the GNEP remote reactor program, it seems to make a great deal of sense. But we were essentially overruled by the starting preconditions. Oh well.

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William A. Casino Jr
Graduate Student: Nuclear Engineering
University of Tennessee at Knoxville
E-mail: wcasino@utk.edu

Nuclear Engineer II
AREVA Federal Services
Email: william.casino@areva.com


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PostPosted: Nov 19, 2007 9:55 pm 
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I'm very proud to announce that our graduate design team, thanks to the excellent presentation skills of Mr. William Casino, has taken first prize in the American Nuclear Society's Student Design Competition!

Bill presented the SMMSR concept to the judges in DC early last week and we took home the gold medal! I want to thank my excellent teammates, Bill and Chris Whitener, for all their hard work to make this happen.

Here's an announcement about the win on the UT Nuclear Engineering website.

Here's the schedule for the ANS Winter Meeting showing the student design presentations:

Image

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--Captain Helen Walker, Tunnel In The Sky, pg 34


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