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PostPosted: Sep 11, 2015 7:49 am 
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Eino wrote:
Would the populace of California be open minded to explore such a project?


No, their elected representation thinks that this is a realistic goal:

SB 350: Golden State Standards 50-50-50

50% energy generation by "renewables" (whatever that means), 50% reduction in petroleum use, and 50% more energy efficiency.

Words fail me as I think about the intense effort California is making to impoverish itself.


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PostPosted: Sep 11, 2015 7:52 am 
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Well..... there are always the Northern California rivers that are currently protected.

Dams on those would get you a long way to that goal.


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PostPosted: Sep 12, 2015 7:33 pm 
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Dams on those would get you a long way to that goal.


That ain't gonna happen. However, is this a legal way to meet the goal?

Sell the output from the Columbia River dams to California at a premium price. Build some new nukes in Idaho and Eastern Washington to make up what is lost for California. Sell this to the Pacific Northwest. The premium price paid by the Californians for the hydro energy would go to cover the cost of the new plants and any extra maintenance beyond what is needed for hydro. California would get what they want. Jobs would be created. Clean energy would still be transmitted to Portland and Seattle.


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PostPosted: Sep 29, 2015 12:56 pm 
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Lars wrote:
KA0OLD wrote:
If California had a few more conventional Reactors running to follow the "Daytime Load" (air conditioners, industry and electric ranges). and filled water towers with "Desalinated Water" at night, (to cover the night time energy surplus), they could "Have their Cake and Eat it too". this is far to simple of a solution for the short term . It does not hurry LFTR to production, but increases the desire for cheap energy for the future.

This actually nicely demonstrates the challenge. The capital cost of a desal unit that used all the electrical output of a nuclear power plant would be about 32 times the cost of the power plant! So, if you don't have a perfect match you should build just enough desal and overbuild your power plants. It is cheaper to idle the power plant than the desal plant.
However, if you pump SEA WATER up to ~800' of head you can use that pressure differential and pressure exchangers to desalinate the same quantity of seawater uniformly throughout the day. it may be the cheapest way to desalinate other than the potential for MED with thermal storage at the high end temperatures. But then, if you have high temp thermal storage, why not just use it to load follow and not build quite so much nuclear?

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PostPosted: Sep 29, 2015 1:22 pm 
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However, if you pump SEA WATER up to ~800' of head you can use that pressure differential and pressure exchangers to desalinate the same quantity of seawater uniformly throughout the day. it may be the cheapest ..


Great idea!!

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PostPosted: Sep 30, 2015 12:28 am 
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Flow batteries using cheaper fluids[i][i][/i][/i] are on the horizon. They could be a more compact arrangement.
They could be cheaper than lithium batteries and held close to user.
http://www.gizmag.com/organic-flow-batt ... age/30433/
Flow batteries could be used for all electric energy.


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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2015 1:42 pm 
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darryl siemer wrote:
Great idea!!
Danka.

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PostPosted: Oct 04, 2015 10:29 pm 
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KitemanSA wrote:
However, if you pump SEA WATER up to ~800' of head you can use that pressure differential and pressure exchangers to desalinate the same quantity of seawater uniformly throughout the day. it may be the cheapest way to desalinate other than the potential for MED with thermal storage at the high end temperatures. But then, if you have high temp thermal storage, why not just use it to load follow and not build quite so much nuclear?

How do you ensure that the salt water doesn't make its way into the water table? We fight salt water intrusion into the water table all the time as it is.


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PostPosted: Oct 05, 2015 9:17 am 
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i guess that you have to provide pipes both ways adding to the cost. You just have to calculate costs and decide.


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PostPosted: Oct 05, 2015 3:28 pm 
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You can use a relatively lightweight XPLE lining like those I proposed for heat bunkerage.
It costs about €2-3/square meter


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PostPosted: Oct 06, 2015 6:18 pm 
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E Ireland wrote:
You can use a relatively lightweight XPLE lining like those I proposed for heat bunkerage.
It costs about €2-3/square meter


People are paranoid about a the potential for fracking to place a relatively harmless gas, methane, into the water supply. (Most of the UK's drinking water contains treatred swewage, so they can get rid of that).

People shouild be even more concenred about a much more dangerous poison - salt - with only a mm of plastic to protect the ground.And that mm will be under 10 bar pressure. Swimming pool linings are placed carefully over flat, smooth sand.


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PostPosted: Oct 06, 2015 10:26 pm 
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These are the linings that are supposed to contain 95C water for years at a time.
They aren't particularily thin.


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PostPosted: Oct 10, 2015 1:58 am 
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jagdish wrote:
i guess that you have to provide pipes both ways adding to the cost. You just have to calculate costs and decide.
Sorry, to whom are you speaking?

If you are replying to my pump up to a reservoir suggestion, no, only one pipe would be needed. The RO unit would be at sea level so only the seawater would need to go up and down.

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PostPosted: Oct 10, 2015 2:03 am 
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Lars wrote:
How do you ensure that the salt water doesn't make its way into the water table? We fight salt water intrusion into the water table all the time as it is.
I would leave that as an exercise for the hired experts.

There is of course the opposite method wherein you build a large pressure vessel annd sink it to 800' and use ambient pressure for RO. Then during night time power lulls, you pump out the PV. Of course, PVs are fairly expensive.

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PostPosted: Oct 10, 2015 4:25 am 
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All the arguments apart, energy is helpful in solving water or other problems. The point is, will the politicians permit the start of a new reactor? I think not. Perhaps a floating power plant cum desalination plant may be anchored offshore and provide desalinated water and power. Will it also have to be proved in middle Easr first?


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