Energy From Thorium Discussion Forum

It is currently Nov 24, 2017 12:38 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mar 26, 2015 3:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Sep 02, 2009 10:24 am
Posts: 513
Just found this....

Polish nuclear joint venture gets antitrust approval

Quote:
Poland's energy policy plans include operating nuclear power plants from about 2025 as it moves away from its current heavy dependence on coal and imported gas. PGE plans to install around 3000 MWe of nuclear capacity at one of three potential sites, with the first unit coming online by 2025.


Poland has one of the world's dirtiest fuel mixes - predominantly brown coal. It's under pressure to reduce emissions, but doesn't have much in the way of alternatives (which is why they're resisting targets):
- It's too far North for solar to be of use in the winter.
- It's too far from the Atlantic for reliable wind power (though the Baltic coast is not too bad).
- It doesn't want to use gas for electricity as it's already reliant on Russia for gas (a LNG terminal is due this summer).

So what else is there?

The public is strongly in favour of nuclear power. There's plenty of coast line (with limited tides) and river access, and good engineering expertise available at much lower cost than in western Europe. The shipyards in Szeczin and Gydynia are pretty much bankrupt but hanging in there ... looking for work. Polish companies have also learnt the need to maintain standards - even what seem to be pretty pointless standards - for ISO9001 type processes.

It seems the Polish electricity market is a bit less than half the size of the UK's ~148TWh/year. Given the existing plans, that means a market for about 15 x 1GW MSRs. There will additionally be a huge export market to Germany, but wholesale prices can drop to zero on sunny days. The Baltic states will also be a market (probably for MSRs - but also for electricity). Poland and Lithuania have been keen to have meaningless arguments recently, but over the last year have suddenly got on much better (thanks to Mr Putin).

There is a nuclear regulator - http://www.paa.gov.pl/en/node/374 - they don't seem to have a GDA process. I would guess that PAA would accept a UK GDA (whereas for example, the French might insist on their own GDA).

[edit: More information here: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Count ... -S/Poland/. The planned reactors are at one of two sites, 70km North of Gdansk.]

Poland is OK for regulated processes. i.e, it's a pain to jump through bureaucratic, legally required moves, and you can't have a beer with the Prime Minister and agree to sell reactors with no competition (as in Hungary). I found that you do need good lawyers to guide you through a process (that was on a bid for transport infrastructure).

Questions:
1. With a modular reactor approach and off site chemical reprocessing, is it acceptable for reprocessing and waste disposal to happen in a different country from the generation?
2. To find out - can one go through the UK GDA, and use that to build in Poland?
3. Poland as a first market for MSRs?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mar 26, 2015 4:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Feb 28, 2011 10:10 am
Posts: 349
It is interesting to note that the coal mines in Poland are making losses, which is costing the Polish government a lot of money. From a recent Bloomberg article:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... o-oblivion

It is difficult for the Poles to compete against cheap coal from elsewhere, like Australia, Colombia or North America. One thing is sure, the Poles are not going to buy nuclear reactors from Rosatom. They do not like to be dependent on Russian technology and equipment.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mar 27, 2015 4:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Apr 19, 2008 1:06 am
Posts: 2250
Perhaps they should have IMSR type reactors and make high temperature steam to gasify the coal in the ground itself. The gas can be cleaned of poisons before feeding it to turbines. It could also be converted to liquid fuels.
There is enough used fuel in Europe. Czech neighbors are quite well versed in molten salt chemistry.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mar 27, 2015 4:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Sep 02, 2009 10:24 am
Posts: 513
Not a good idea.

1. How to make MSRs politically unacceptable just as they get going? Use them to extract coal.
2. If you can make electricity at 3.5c/KWh, why bother with coal gasification?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mar 27, 2015 5:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Apr 19, 2008 1:06 am
Posts: 2250
alexterrell wrote:
Not a good idea.

1. How to make MSRs politically unacceptable just as they get going? Use them to extract coal.
2. If you can make electricity at 3.5c/KWh, why bother with coal gasification?

Just to clean the fuel and reduce health hazards.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Nov 26, 2015 5:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Nov 04, 2015 7:53 pm
Posts: 2
Just to let you know, situation in Poland is quite dramatic right now because of EU energy policies.

In short-term view:
-This summer there was a near-blackout, and 4-5 days of energy cuts called by national grid operator.
-One coal plant goes down while other is at planned maint. and we are facing major energy crisis like this ^^
-Circular flows from german renewables contributed strongly to this.

In long-term view:
-Poland needs to renew its aging coal plants, which is completely blocked by EU-ETS and similar mechanisms.
-We cannot afford like Germany to transfer all costs of renewables to households bcs energy cost is already very high % of household expenditures.
-Nuclear is not an viable option in 10 years even if we decided today.

Situation is quite dramatic, and outlook is very gloom seeing what green ideologists demand for COP21 ...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Nov 27, 2015 9:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Sep 02, 2009 10:24 am
Posts: 513
As I understand it, there are no subsidies for nuclear, which makes it hard for Gen III to compete with coal - not helped by the occassional offering of free electricity from Germany when its sunny and windy.

The solution would appear to be to build small modular reactors, but there's no initiative behind that. In theory one of the electricity companies could build a MSR or any other plant, and approval shouldn't be that difficult. It's more difficult though for outsiders.

The new Government I presume will be pro-coal, and not have much technical knowledge of small modular reactors.

Is that about right?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Nov 27, 2015 10:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Sep 01, 2009 1:01 pm
Posts: 51
China to build Polish nuclear plant?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Nov 27, 2015 3:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Nov 04, 2015 7:53 pm
Posts: 2
alexterrell wrote:
As I understand it, there are no subsidies for nuclear, which makes it hard for Gen III to compete with coal - not helped by the occassional offering of free electricity from Germany when its sunny and windy.

The solution would appear to be to build small modular reactors, but there's no initiative behind that. In theory one of the electricity companies could build a MSR or any other plant, and approval shouldn't be that difficult. It's more difficult though for outsiders.

The new Government I presume will be pro-coal, and not have much technical knowledge of small modular reactors.

Is that about right?


1. Poland scrapped it's unfinished 2x440 VVER plant in 1991, 85% of the budget was already spent, we really regret this now.
2. There are many others examples like that in EE block: Ignalina Lithuania - 80% national capacity - they now must import from Russia, Kozloduy in Bulgaria and ice on the cake - Griefswalde in E.Germany - they really regret scraping this plant because you guess it -> replaced by coal.

3. New government wants to create capacity market and push out renewables a bit - it's their official doctrine but they are really unstable and mostly focused on revenge on opposition parties.
4. I have my small contribution in singing this China-Poland deal, however it's strictly political, and empty as for now. Poland already has a company called PGE EJ1 responsible for building a nuclear plant, but you guess it -> Politics.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Nov 29, 2015 5:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Feb 28, 2011 10:10 am
Posts: 349
Nuclear energy seems the most logical future option for Poland. Coal is slowly being phased out in the EU, with anti-coal policies being adopted by the EU. Natural gas and renewables are not an option either for Poland. Natural gas would require a lot of imports, which would be bad for the balance of payments of Poland. Renewables are more or less hobby projects to satisfy the green conscience in the richer nations of western Europe, but are not affordable for the poorer EU member states in eastern Europe, because they can not hand out lavish subsidies as for example as in Germany.

Poland should follow in the footsteps of the other Visegrad member countries (Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary). Countries such as Slovakia and the Czech Republic already rely heavily on nuclear power (Slovakia > 50 %), although they use underlying Russian technology, which will be frowned upon in Poland.

Companies such as Areva and Westinghouse will not face the Russian competition in Poland, if reactors will be ordered. But of course there will be competition from China and South Korea.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Nov 28, 2016 10:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Nov 14, 2016 5:01 pm
Posts: 18
camiel wrote:
Nuclear energy seems the most logical future option for Poland. Coal is slowly being phased out in the EU, with anti-coal policies being adopted by the EU. Natural gas and renewables are not an option either for Poland. Natural gas would require a lot of imports, which would be bad for the balance of payments of Poland. Renewables are more or less hobby projects to satisfy the green conscience in the richer nations of western Europe, but are not affordable for the poorer EU member states in eastern Europe, because they can not hand out lavish subsidies as for example as in Germany.

Poland should follow in the footsteps of the other Visegrad member countries (Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary). Countries such as Slovakia and the Czech Republic already rely heavily on nuclear power (Slovakia > 50 %), although they use underlying Russian technology, which will be frowned upon in Poland.

Companies such as Areva and Westinghouse will not face the Russian competition in Poland, if reactors will be ordered. But of course there will be competition from China and South Korea.


The problem is that even without competition from the Russians the EPR and AP-1000 will face competition from other sources that will be able to beat them up over capital costs. I'm not sure Gen III has much of a future in Poland unless the western firms get their costs under control.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Dec 02, 2016 5:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Sep 02, 2009 10:24 am
Posts: 513
Amur_Tiger wrote:
I'm not sure Gen III has much of a future in Poland unless the western firms get their costs under control.


I think that applies to many - perhaps most countries in the world. Why would Australia be tempted to invest in current Gen III when they don't have to, and it's too expensive.

If someone builds a MSR and can produce electricity at a reasonable price, then there's a game changer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Dec 02, 2016 3:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Nov 14, 2016 5:01 pm
Posts: 18
alexterrell wrote:
Amur_Tiger wrote:
I'm not sure Gen III has much of a future in Poland unless the western firms get their costs under control.


I think that applies to many - perhaps most countries in the world. Why would Australia be tempted to invest in current Gen III when they don't have to, and it's too expensive.

If someone builds a MSR and can produce electricity at a reasonable price, then there's a game changer.


Put simply Australia's in a better position to pay for it then Poland is. GDP per capita advantages are obvious, less obvious are GDP per KWh where Australia sits around 6.6 dollars per KWh and Poland sits around 3.6. Also Australia has large uranium mining operations that can keep the fuel costs for nuclear inside Australia ( or at least some, fuel production may occur outside the country ) whereas Poland would be switching from domestically produced coal to foreign produced uranium.

I agree that if we see an SMR ( Small Modular Reactor ) get built at a reasonable price and start to produce power it would change the game my main point is that Poland is liable to wait for that to happen instead of being willing work with the current Gen III offerings due to a mix of economic and geopolitical issues. Some other countries ( Australia among them ) are going to be more willing to pay the capital costs and get some of the nuclear benefits now instead of waiting for SMRs to become a reality in the marketplace.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Jul 12, 2017 6:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Nov 30, 2006 3:30 pm
Posts: 3331
Location: Alabama
Polish official announces future energy plans

Quote:
Tobiszowski also said a decision on whether Poland would continue to build a nuclear power plant would be taken by the end of the year. The plant has already cost some PLN 200 million but the government has said it cannot be funded by the state budget, according to radio station RMF, and is looking for funding.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group